Truemors
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I would like to draw attention to a piece posted by Joellerose on October 8.
http://my.nowpublic.com/world/can-leopard-change-spots-can-obama-really-be-trusted
Unfortunately the discussion of the issues he raised was rather overshadowed by the personal attack he launched on another NP contributor.
I'm aware that this goes on from time to time and that editors try to step in to calm the situation (as Amy Judd did admirably in this case).
But sometimes in my opinion it's not enough.
Joellerose's comments on Zichi remained there for everyone to read. There was no real attempt from him to make a public apology, and the post stayed on site for everyone visiting to make their own assessment of what NP is all about.
Call me old fashioned and behind the times if you like, but this is simply not the way individuals should react - in "real life" or on the Net.
I would like to see editors come down much harder on this sort of thing by pulling a post immediately this happens, simply to maintain the integrity of the site and ensure that discussion revolves around the points raised in the post and not personal attacks. It's not enough to request that the issue be continued in the Forum.
Once on the post it was in the (very) public domain and had no right being there.
After all that's part of the code of conduct we all agree to when signing up here and should be respected by newbies, wranglers, and guest editors alike.
Here's a sample of some of Joellerose's comments that were there for everyone to read.
"The truth often hurts. Blaming white America for AIDS, getting even with whitey and wresting reparations is exactly what your man, Obama, sat, listened to, and obviously approved of until the heat turned up, and he dumped them to save his candidacy."
"I was a college professor for many years. I had hundreds of arguments with liberal professors. For a time I thought we were having differences of opinion about what was best for America until I discovered many of them hated America (as zichi has admitted he does), and really wanted to impose policies that would humiliate us and bring us down. That they would then lose the protection for their rights and their prosperous positions did not seem to occur to them."
"zichi, I do owe you an apology; I had you confused with djermo, who made such a statement. I can only infer that you hate American from the tone of most of your posts and comments."
Sure these comments are taken a little out of context (anyone should be able to read the whole exchange on the post) but that doesn't make them pardonable or acceptable.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with a difference of political views and everything to do with appalling behaviour.
Please NP editors do something about this happening. Wrench, pull, delete, sanction or whatever is necessary. But don't just let it be.
Johnny
Most RecentMost Recommended Comments (25)
at 12:08 on October 8th, 2008
All comments on what should and shouldn't be allowed on NP posts would be welcome, especially when in this case they seem to undermine the integrity of the site.
at 12:13 on October 8th, 2008
While, as Amy said, we do not know what kind of private action was or was not taken, it is offensive that the offensive remark was allowed to stand. If the remark called for apology, it should have been stricken with that apology not being forthcoming.
at 12:17 on October 8th, 2008
And that request for an apology came from several members here. I think the least Joellerose could do is to doff his wrangler hat and wring his hands in abject apology here - where only the brave and foolish manage to tread. Come on Joellerose. This is the place to do it.
at 12:23 on October 8th, 2008
Johnny,
Joel couldn't care less what people think, or how this hurts others. I have jostled with him for a year and a half, lost my Wrangler status because of it, and I can say for certain he doesn't play by the same rules we do. To him, the end justifies the means, period!
at 12:25 on October 8th, 2008
The apology, if one can call it that, and you may have missed it, restates the original thought and opinion, stated in the form of a belief that what was previously stated was inferred in Zichi's posts.
at 12:25 on October 8th, 2008
Joellerose has been using this tactic since he began here and the story is always the same. They have a real hard talk with him and he keeps a low profile for awhile and then he is back at it, racism, slander, and vicious direct and indirect ad hominem attacks.
Thus has it been for a year and a half through several iterations of editors that always tell me they "take it seriously" and will put a stop to it. All I can say, unfortunately, is don't count on anything changing.
You'll note that he used this technique of sparking confrontation to get his story to number one. He lights the fire and we jump in and then all the right-wing apologists support him with GS flags.
Even Editors who should know better than to put a GS on that crap!
Sigh.........
The more things change. The more they remain the same.
at 12:20 on October 8th, 2008
First of all, as I already said on the original story, I am not allowing News Wranglers to behave in this way, but there is a set of steps which we adhere to on this post, that I have put into motion.
The same rules apply to everyone, including staff, and it is a huge part of my job to enforce those.
I am removing the post from the front page due to the inflammatory comments, however I will not be unpublishing it as it is still a news story and not a slanderous post about a member of staff or of the site.
Yes, I know some of the comments are inflammatory but I do not remove comments from members unless I absolutely have to and I think this example has opened up some good dialogue.
Thanks to Johnny for bringing it up in the forum.
at 12:29 on October 8th, 2008
Thanks Amy for reacting to the situation.
I still think that Joellerose's comments were uncalled for - regardless of the newsworthiness of the post (which I don't dispute). But the personal attack and his refusal to apologise or withdraw his comment, deserved immediate "wrenching" of his post as far as I'm concerned.
Standards and a code of conduct have to have some point (especially for longer standing members) otherwise NP will simply be seen as a public slanging arena.
This has nothing to do with political opinions and everything to do with common decency.
at 12:33 on October 8th, 2008
Thank you, Amy, for the attention and consideration you have given to this matter.
at 12:28 on October 8th, 2008
Posted on behalf of zichi:
zichi
at 13:26 on October 8th, 2008
IT WOULD APPEAR THAT NOWPUBLIC CAN NOT CONTROL ITS OWN NEWS WRANGLERS SO LETS THEM SLANDER AND STATE WHATEVER SHIT COMES INTO HER INFANTILE MINDS WHILE WE ORDINARY SLAVE POSTERS ARE SUPPOSE TO FOLLOW THE CODE OF PRACTICE? WHAT CODE OF PRACTICE IS ONLY OF VALUE WHEN APPLIED TO EVERYONE
at 14:48 on October 8th, 2008
Trouble shooting: Social logistics explainer
Different countries different rules
In America an open attack is just normal, you backfire with 200%
whereas In Japan you make yourself an enemy for almost ever.
So zichis position must be "not to lose his face" as the Japanese would say,
this can be done only by apology.
The American positon is on the borderline of agressive behaviour for Non-Americans,
but sometimes a shoutout is normal.
An example: French ask every Tourist where he comes from, because of his "strange dialect.
The tourist scared, probably never will try again to speak french.He will never come back.
The french man however did not mean it bad, he is interested in the history of a person, while however he is trying to get the person in a box category, what we hate, especially Americans. I try often to explain my french partners not to ask for the dialect question, it would discourage people from speaking french, as miserable the french english is to accept.
No solution, but coexistence possible. We have to know what "cat and dog" means using same signals with different messages.
My proposal: make decission tomorrow
let's start a moderation of different cultures like a social internet. Nobody has done it before, maybe this is the time to start.
Both parties should stay on NP and agree to a short paragraph of understanding codex.
I apaologize in advance of any bad mouth from my side, it happens to me too, I shoutout from time to time. So zichi stay with NP, you are the soul of action here.
at 17:46 on October 8th, 2008
That is a good assessment SOLARLIFE and would make you a good diplomat if put into practice. I would say it is some times wise to sleep it over and react the next day.
Especially with drastic actions such as cancelling your account here Zichi. You do have many friends here Zichi and many that stand up for you.
You do write good post and provide good comments and I would say you are an asset to NP. However you have to calm down and not make rash decisions based on emotions, no matter how offensive they may be.
NP. Has to allow to a certain extent even the extremes such as Joellrose or others because of the essence of free speech it self, yet NP should not allow a NW or Editor to behave or speak as Joellrose did and does all the time, miss using and abusing the NW status and responsibility that goes with it or should any how.
at 18:26 on October 8th, 2008
I took a lot of crap on NP, because I'm not pro-Obama, not a socialist, not anti-American. I've seen things equal to or worse than the material quoted from joellerose, hurled at NP members from some of the very people in this thread talking about how awful joellerose's comments are. And many of those comments were very very personal. But no one seemed to have an issue with those comments--as long as they were hurled at the "other side of the aisle."
This comment from joellerose is political, not personal commentary: "laming white America for AIDS, getting even with whitey and wresting reparations is exactly what your man, Obama, sat, listened to, and obviously approved of until the heat turned up, and he dumped them to save his candidacy.""
It's been said on TV, on websites, everywhere, in one form or another. I think the real problem here is that someone is attacking Obama. I think that equal, and sometimes worse, has been said about McCain.
And the savaging offered up on Palin was worse--and it spilled over onto NP members who dared to look at the issues about how she was treated.
Some of those problems were provided by some of the people in this thread declaring how people should behave.
Playing fair is important. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander too.
at 21:47 on October 8th, 2008
I think you are talking about the post PEP and not the comments made toward Zichi.
Many here that are not Anti American in the least fund them self called Anti American because they did not agree with a lets say Right wing view, some of those so called anti American are American Citizen and live in the US wish is rather Ironic.
I do not agree with Obama either nor do I with McCain though, Yet I like Ralph Nader. Am I anti American for not liking the currant American Foreign Politics and policies, I think not.
You are free to write a post in support of Palin and in dementing the other non favourable post out on Palin. Please do, I would like to read it.
I criticize Obama as well as McCain, Palin and Sarcozzy, Merkel, Aso, and other Politician's here openly and Yet only when I criticize a US Right Wing Politician I find my self Called names and Anti American. Hum, don't you find that a nit bizarre in the least.
at 18:53 on October 8th, 2008
Yeah, I'll weigh in on this issue. First off, I have always found 4 things to be true.
1. Trouble makers love to make trouble. They feel no remorse for stirring up crap. And they keep doing it till my #2 point happens.
2. Trouble makers always get the axe from ANY site, and it's never regarded as an abridgment of free speech. It's always regarded as what it is, dumping someone from my point #1.
3. Life goes on, minus point #1
4. Rules are rules and just like with any workplace, you violate them and you get the axe. Rules also apply equally and fully to EVERYONE, even the troublemakers.
Perhaps that should have been done in this case. I don't draw a paycheck from NP, though I would love to, so I won't second guess NP staff for keeping a trouble maker on the site. But since money is not keeping me here, NP has to make sure for the sake of all contributors that they make the site attractive for people to stay and that it is free from BS, otherwise they'll take their writings elsewhere. In leiu of pay for contributors they need to attract posters rather than let others drive a poster off due to nasty comments.
at 20:32 on October 9th, 2008
Well, actually, Jim, in the year or so I was active here, only 2 active members that I know of were banned. One got into a tit for tat with another member, who's still here. The other had problems with following regulations.
Right now the site isn't attractive for anyone of a conservative or sometimes even moderate bent, in terms of U.S. politics. The allowable ad hominems on those members are a matter of record.
Meanwhile, how the heck are you? As best I recall from your cross-country journey, weren't you going to start a new job waiting for you? How's it going? Do you like it? I hope you do.
at 03:11 on October 9th, 2008
I just want to say how sad I am that Zichi has left, NP has lost far too many good contributors this year. I am not going to comment on this incident but will only say I have seen far too many personal attacks on this site and not just from members and wranglers. NP needs to be led by example and rules need to apply equally to all including those who make them.
at 15:58 on October 9th, 2008
WHAT!!!!
Zichi's gone for good? What a bloody tragedy and a great loss to the site. (I'm logging-off in a huff)
at 20:51 on October 9th, 2008
Vinny, yep. Far too many good members are gone, by their own choice (not, as Jim intimates, that they got banned.) I saw that ya'll were discussing decreased page views. According to Alexa stats, NP is down in all indicators.
Here's the top reasons why people I talked to, or tried to convince to get a membership here, or keep one (back when I was active), or people who'd looked NP over and then discussed it told me they didn't want to be involved::
1. plagiarism
2. hypcrisy---staff telling members to not do something, then doing the same something (especially pasting in entire stories from elsewhere and personal attacks)
3. ad hominem attacks and a difference in how different members were treated and how what was a major "sin" for one was excused for another
4. just a stream of highlights, and highlights, especially from staff, getting more GS flags than original material from members, and "bumping" of members' material by staff members. these items have all been discussed on NP over and over, of course, so none of this is really news.
That's just anecdotal, of course.
There are far too many personal attacks. And I'm not sure why joellerose was called out for community condemnation when I've seen a heckuva lot worse from the other side of the aisle. Is there a point--and Johnny, I don't mean any insult to you--to calling out individuals? Shouldn't these matters be handled by staff? Over the months, it just seems like the conflict between members has only increased, and not in terms of reasonable debate but taunting, personal attacks, etc. etc.
There are some folks here who are experiencing hurt, and who have real concerns. But the track record is that the same discussions will lather, rinse, repeat, and good posters will leave. Of course, from NP's angle, I'm sure that there's an entire internet filled with potential new members, so members leaving isn't a big deal. That's just the way it goes on websites built by free labor--doesn't really matter who's doing the labor as long as something's happening! (One major media research group study on this is in preparation, as far as I know.)
at 21:04 on October 9th, 2008
This is an inappropriate comment that wasn't addressed by staff and it was apparently acceptable to members who are complaining about joellerose:
"Sorry, but muzzle Joellerose and we'll all stop."
Why should joellerose be "muzzled"? Has it come to pass that on NP, like in Missouri, those who disagree with Obama and his campaign's tactics, must be "muzzled"?
Why not muzzle, say, Moonwolf? (I'm not asking for that, understand, I'm posing a rhetorical.) Moonwolf is as far left as joellerose is right. So why should anyone demand that one side be "muzzled" and the other side be acceptable--including a call for the other side to be muzzled?
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coral (not verified)at 11:12 on October 10th, 2008
what an interesting discussion going on here
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mary neal (not verified)at 01:08 on November 14th, 2008
Problem - I am being asked for my password to log onto NowPublic, and I feel it is my MONITORS who want to capture my password. This never happened to me before, because I leave myself logged on all the time. What should I do? Should I go ahead and log on using my password? Do you have my articles on backup, in case they use my password to mess with them? Let me know please. Otherwise, I may not be able to log on ever again as duo. I would have to start over as a new author, which would be a mess. I'm at mneal000@yahoo.com
Mary
at 05:49 on November 14th, 2008
When we commit fixes to the site, users who aren't currently online sometimes get logged out. This is normal.
at 21:05 on November 25th, 2008
I'm new to the site, but what am I missing here? I don't necessarily see the offensive comments in the sampling posted by Johnny. Is the issue that Jellerose points out that many college professors are liberal (clearly not the case with Ward Churchill), or is it because he points out that the anointed one sat in a church for 20 years and claims not to be affected by an America Hater's diatribe for all these years? Or is it because JR appears to be conservative?
I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just trying to determine if this is a genuine forum for debate or is the fairness doctrine going to be applied here (code words for censorship). Somebody please let me know because I'm not real clear on what is offensive or counter to policy. Thank you.
at 09:59 on November 26th, 2008
This forum post is actually incomplete now, and has some holes in it as one of the members who was heavily involved in this discussion has since left the site, and when he did so all of his comments were deleted, including on this forum.
This is the place where we want debates of this nature to take place and we apply our code of conduct to all aspects of our site, and to everyone.
Thanks for bringing this up.